【W22E3】Considering Seiko Hashimoto as JOC president Guests: Atsuhisa Yamamoto, Nobuya Kobayashi

【W22E3】Considering Seiko Hashimoto as JOC president Guests: Atsuhisa Yamamoto, Nobuya Kobayashi

[Music] Good evening, everyone. It’s time for Forum 8 Presents Taki’s Sports Journalism. I’m sports writer Ozaki, your host. This channel features sports culture commentator Masayuki Taki, who uncovers and considers the true problems of sports from a different perspective than conventional channels. I’m commentator Masayuki Taki. Nice to meet you. Hello, everyone. Today is my third episode. We’re thinking about the current state and future of Japanese sports, and I think there was a pretty big event this year, just recently. [Music] Last month. Seiko Hashimoto was elected as president of the JC, but, how should I put it, she’s had a lot of issues with money, so I wonder what’s going to happen. She was the top contributor to slush funds. She’s currently running for the House of Councillors. On top of that, it ‘s traditionally been the case that politicians have been appointed as the chiefs or top leaders of Japanese sports organizations, but it’s unclear whether Seiko Hashimoto is a politician or a sportswoman . Also, there was an election recently , and although three people, including Yuko Miya, who was president of the basketball association, and Tajima, who was president of the Supaca Association, were elected, the results haven’t been announced yet. I have no idea why they haven’t been announced, but when Seiko Hashimoto was selected as president of the JC, I was surprised by her first words. [Music] She said she wanted to do her best to secure the Olympics. To hold the Olympics. I wanted to say that they haven’t finished reflecting on the previous comments, like, “Should we do it?” I feel like she was the one who should have done it, but I also felt like the person who was in charge was the president of the organizing committee, and I’d like to talk about those things today. Our guests are Atsuhisa Emoto and Shinya Kobayashi. Thank you for joining us again today. Thank you for joining us. By the way, Yamamoto-san, what do you think about the way the presidents of Japan’s sports organizations are selected? The president of the JC. Yeah. Well, I understand that the process is opaque and that the nature of the organization won’t change at all, but yeah. Just one thing. I wonder if there’s any significance in the future of a woman being at the top of a sports organization. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a bit of a stretch, but I think I can think about it. After all, in a world that’s been dominated by men , I think there is some significance in a woman reigning at the top. Yeah. Whether Hashimoto was appropriate or not is another matter, but I think it’s important for women to become leaders in today’s Japanese society. I see . Yeah. I see. It reminded me of when the Prime Minister was born, that British person said, “She’s not a woman, she’s a man.” Kobayashi-san, what do you think about Hashimoto Seiko as the JC president? Regarding the Tokyo Olympics, I think Mori played a key role, and Hashimoto took over . It’s not like I’m particularly trying to promote it, but everyone’s saying, “Let’s stop, let’s stop,” because of COVID, but is it really okay to just give up? Is it okay to keep our promise to the world just because Japan is already COVID-19? I was thinking about ways to do it, and as I was approaching it from a music perspective , I had the opportunity to speak quite closely with Hashimoto, and I saw that she was very passionate about promoting the 2020 Tokyo Olympics . Regarding that, I, well, I’m a small person, but I do feel like we fought together . Yeah. I don’t really want to say anything bad about her. No, no, I don’t want you to say anything bad about it. Please. After that, I’m sure there were many things that Hashimoto-san needed to accomplish, and when it was over, I told him a few things I’d be happy if he could do this in the future, but in the end, there wasn’t much positive action on that front . So , there was talk of doing something about the Sapporo Olympics, yes. Well, the Tokyo Olympics weren’t properly reviewed, either, yes. To be honest, I’m a little confused about the idea of ​​someone who wants to hold another Olympics in that situation being appointed as the leader. Honestly, I don’t really understand it. That’s right. I honestly thought the same thing, but Professor Sakagami Yasushi, professor emeritus at Hitotsubashi University, said that if we were to think about one legacy of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics , everyone thought that there would never be another Olympics, and that this was a legacy. But without any of that thought, he came up with the idea of ​​holding another Olympics . Yamamoto-san, how can you come up with ideas like this? I can’t believe it. In Ashimoto-san’s case, it was just like that. So he’s talking about wanting to host the Winter Olympics? Ah, I see. Sapporo couldn’t be bid. That ‘s what it was. But as you two said, the aftermath of the Tokyo Olympics isn’t finished yet, and we don’t know how the money was spent . And we don’t know what’s going on with a certain huge corporation that was heavily involved . So many things have been shelved . So, the way he so easily blurted out “Olympics” makes me wonder, how is that for a leader? But how should I put it now? In Japan’s sports community, there are leaders of the Junior Council and leaders of sports associations, so what exactly are they supposed to be proposing? It seems like they’re not proposing anything at all. What do you think about that, Yamamoto- san? After all, each major international event, especially the Tokyo Olympics, will just move forward without any rethinking about how it should be perceived. And so it’s going to get messed up again. Carrying on as if nothing happened will ultimately lead to sports being looked down upon again, because the people who play sports and those who support them are people who don’t think about it at all . Companies will jump on the bandwagon, saying, “We’ll forget about it again, so let’s keep doing it,” and I don’t think politicians are really thinking about sports either. Yeah. So, what do you mean, “sports again?” It makes me think, “These people aren’t going to think about it anyway.” I feel really bad when I see the issue being dropped like this, and I see. I can’t help but watch. I see. Despite people saying they’re not going to think about it, this year the World Athletics Championships will be held in Tokyo, and there will also be the Deaf Olympiad. And next year, there’s Milano-Tokyo, which won’t be held in Tokyo, Japan , but it’ll be a hot topic. And then after that, there’s the basketball World Cup and the rugby World Cup. And then there’s the soccer World Cup, and then the Los Angeles Olympics, so in a sense, sports are important. Yeah. Well, sporting events definitely match the speed of global capitalism . Yeah. Sports have really been completely absorbed into capitalism, and they ‘ve been sucked into a circuit where they have to keep coming out with new products one after another, so if they don’t hold international events, they won’t get attention . That’s what it comes down to. Well, I know this is a harsh way of putting it, but without those big global events, sports won’t develop, they won’t move forward, they won’t have facilities, and people won’t gather, so they’ve already bitten the forbidden fruit, so sponsorship is a forbidden move. I see. I see. Yeah. So I don’t think that kind of innovation comes from local, marginal areas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you just said, that within capitalism, which has been completely absorbed by it, it has become, well, a major engine, so to speak. So what exactly is the principle of capitalism? It’s simply an ever-increasing upward trend. There’s no other option but expansion and reproduction, and if it shrinks, it’s no longer capitalism. That’s right. It’s a movement that drives value proliferation, the proliferation of money. That’s right. That’s right. That’s amazing. Sports, then, grow bigger and bigger without any effort, and I start to wonder, “Maybe we should all just die one by one.” I’m from the city now, so I’ve started using that phrase a lot lately. Kobayashi-san, what do you think? Yes . So, when Tama-san and Yamamoto-san asked us, “What is sport?” in our heads, or rather, in our bodies, it encompasses a whole host of different aspects. Yes. That’s right. But that’s true for Hashimoto-san and all the previous sports ministers, too. They’ve dedicated their lives to competitive sports, and the values ​​they hold are deeply integrated into them. That’s right. That’s the capitalism Yamamoto-san spoke of. Basically, it’s big events like these that are most easily associated with commercialism . Well, the thing that drives sports today is the fact that winning and losing are the things that are most easily connected, but aren’t other things around us far more important? Yes. That’s right. So, um, why I was confused about Mr. Hashimoto becoming president? Another reason is that I don’t feel like he’s a leader representing Japanese sports. Ah, that would be the same for Yasuhiro Yamashita or Mr. Endo. Yes. Um, even if it was Mr. Koji or Daiichi Suzuki, they might be medalists, or politicians who used to play sports, but … How much do they think about sports? How deeply do they feel that sports need to be done this way, yeah ? Japanese sports are driven by people who don’t feel that way, like, “I want to do this.” So, I mentioned three names, and it’s said that one of them gave a lot of instructions, but I don’t think even he thought about it that much . yeah. So, what is this Japanese sports society like, where only people like that can rise to the top? What exactly is the purpose of the society that drives sports? Well, ultimately, it’s all about profit, or some kind of big money . That’s all I can think. Yes, they’re talking about moving middle school clubs beyond the local level, but where are they going to get the funding? No one’s really thinking about that. Well, that’s true. They’re casually saying things like, “We don’t have enough money, so let’s extend it by a year,” as if they knew that from the beginning. That’s true. That’s true. The problem when we really talk about outsourcing sports is, when they say they’re going to outsource the middle school clubs, and eventually the high schools too, but then they ask, “What will we do with the wilderness?” and no one can answer. When I ask people if they know who built the wilderness, surprisingly few people know. Wait, it was built under orders from GHQ , right? According to the Asahi Shimbun. I think it’s extremely troubling that they don’t understand the strangeness of that. Well, there’s just one thing. When Daiichi was the director general, I interviewed him, and he said something interesting. He said , well, he was a swimmer, so it seems like the Wilderness Association seemed a bit odd, and he said, ‘Maybe it’s better for high school sports to be club sports too. ‘ Yes. So that’s not good. Just because the school is aiming for Koshien, what if they make it a club? Middle school baseball is just club sports, and that’s something he brought up quite a bit. I don’t know if it was him who brought it up or a colleague who thought of it, but he brought it up quite a bit. Oh. Unfortunately, it quickly became a standstill, and of course the Wilderness Association was opposed, and maybe the public was opposed too, but that was actually… Oh, he started saying some interesting things, and that was a standstill, but for example, things like that, you know, as a leader you can make various suggestions, yeah. You know, even the Olympics aren’t just about inviting people to the Olympics . Well, Yamao-san, you published several books before the Olympics . Yes. I think they’re finally starting to get through to everyone. As Mr. Saka said, I really think it’s become a legacy. But I feel like there’s still some kind of big, invisible organization that’s trying to make a fool of itself, wanting to take leadership roles, or making others take leadership roles, that’s still driving Japan. Is it an invisible organization, or an invisible atmosphere? I was involved in a lot of work from 2000 to the 2020 Tokyo Olympics , and what I wanted most at the time was to change the focus from physical education to sports. When the definition of Sports Day was created, written by the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology and submitted, it said, “What kind of day is that day ?” It’s strange to ask someone what it means to be involved in sports and then call it something if you can’t answer that question. I’m glad that it was officially renamed as ” a day to enjoy leggings ,” but I ‘m also sad that no one understands the meaning of the change from physical education to sports. What should we do about this? Yamamoto-san, is there a good way for us to spread the word? Well, I’m not sure how, but I thought Kobayashi-san said something really good earlier . The people you mentioned, including people other than the old guys, and including the people who came before, are really just people who have turned sports into a disease. Ah, aren’t they just the few winners who are truly transferred to the media within the broad culture of sports? Yes. That’s right. So, I wonder if it’s okay to leave these people representing the entire culture of sports. [Music] Yeah. Yeah. There are fringe sports, local sports, and a lot of lesser-known sports, but yeah , it should be a Sports Day that includes all of that. Right. You can’t say that the people who won medals at the Olympics didn’t enjoy sports, but yeah. There are a lot of other people who truly enjoy sports in a broad sense , right? Yes. Yes. I think those kinds of people could be more actively involved in the administration and management of sports. I see. Right. Fame is easy. Capitalism will take hold if you’re famous, so I think it would work, yes. But I think I want to do music in a way that doesn’t rely on that sort of thing, like steadily building a culture . Yes. Well, I know that’s a really difficult point, but now that I ‘m over 70, I’ve started to wonder if there’s any way to reform the sport. Yamamoto-san, is that no good? What is it? Can’t you get your point across in writing? Well, I mean, I think we should just work hard on YouTube. Kobayashi-san, what do you think? Is there any way to reform the sport? That’s what you said earlier, Yamao-san, but sports are, after all, insignificant to the general public. Yes. The Olympics, professional baseball, military, and other entertainment that you can enjoy whenever you want are things that provide content that you can enjoy when you want to, and people are very interested in what’s going on behind the scenes, and when things like the recent power harassment issue are turned into entertainment, they’re very interested, but they’re not that interested in the details like, “Oh, I see, actually, this is what the background was .” Yeah. So, as I was listening to you earlier, I was thinking, actually, the associations for various sports in prefectures, for example, are run by a bunch of people who are really volunteering, but because they’re doing music, it’s really cool to be there. Even if a newcomer comes along who seems like they should be entrusted to someone else, they absolutely exclude them. I see, so sports organizations are the ones that have the most of that village-like atmosphere in Japan . And it’s not like they’re monitoring prisoners, it’s more like a system that allows those people to do as they please. Yeah. So, it’s strange, I published a book called “We Don’t Need Mazu’s Koshien,” and even though a certain number of people have read it, it’s probably not been picked up by the major media. That must be difficult. I think that’s what that means. Yeah. Yeah. It’s been written about in a few columns, and it hasn’t really come up anywhere except in places where you’ve been working hard. So, the reality is that people aren’t that interested in the important aspects of sports, and the situation in Japan is like this. So, how can we deal with issues like muscle toning? [Music] Yes, yes, there are elderly people who are devoting themselves to sports, but they end up with knee pain and back pain, and it seems like it’s just part of the sport, but in the end, they’re just being treated like customers . Yeah. I see. As important customers of capitalism, I think we really need to make more people aware of these things and spread the word. This was the very first thing I said in the series , but the global sports market is growing exponentially within capitalism, for better or worse. In Japan, the media has taken over the industry, and organizations are now small and individual. If we can’t keep up, the Japanese market will shrink even more, and that’s the same as Japanese industry shrinking. Isn’t that inspiring? What do you think, Yamamoto? After all, if we focus on sports, we can make more money. That’s why it’s become a sports village. It’s just like the nuclear power village. Oh, that’s right. It’s just like the nuclear power village. Yes. Only those people are allowed in, and profit, honor, status, and hierarchy revolve within them . Yes. New people and people who say interesting things can’t get in, so the first thing we need to do is destroy the sports village. Capitalism is the enemy, but they can’t even get on board with it. That’s true for sports. Everyone’s been saying not to mix sports and politics, after all . Yes. And when athletes, especially, make political statements, it causes a backlash. Bringing politics into sports. Right . Right. So, I’ve certainly wondered now why no one says anything about politicians using sport to this extent. Yeah. Ah, I see. So politicians are allowed to think about what to do with sports, yeah . Yes. Yes. Yes. That’s what it means, isn’t it? According to the current situation , yeah. I see. That’s it. In terms of the establishment of the JC organization, yeah . Well, J was created to be independent from politics . That’s what it is, isn’t it? That’s it. I still feel like it’s impossible for a politician to be at the top of that. That’s right. Yeah. But, you know, Sebastianko, who became the president of the World Athletics Federation and was unsuccessful as a city president, was not only a top athlete, but also a British member of parliament, so in a sense he was a politician too. Yeah. Considering that, what is the balance between politicians and athletes? Gomesan-san, can we think of Hashimoto Seiko as an athlete, or will she become a politician? Is it like we can judge her based on the amount of money she’s received from that behind-the-scenes issue? I’d like to hear Osan’s comment. [Music] Personally, even now, there are a few former Olympians who have become politicians. One of my friends has become a politician, but… Yes. There aren’t many sports activities that we expect from politicians. I see. In the end, as Taki-san said, it’s like politicians are using sports as messengers in a way that they want to use. That’s right. In short, rather than properly reflecting the intentions of sports in politics, it ‘s becoming a drug that imposes political intentions under the banner of sports, and I find that very disappointing. I see . I mean, they’re just carrying the conduit, or the role of a messenger, or, you could say, a figurehead. What I asked of Ms. Hashimoto after the Olympics was over was, well, at the time, the issue of the Olympics hadn’t been raised yet, but it was already being said that the facilities that had been built were in the red, and it was being said that they were in the red because of the lack of sales . I strongly requested that politicians make proper proposals, such as saying that they were in the red because of the lack of sales, and that we secure proper funding for sports in Japan . Well, there hasn’t been much action on this at the moment, but politicians with backgrounds in sports hardly ever say anything like that. They don’t say it. Especially those who have reached higher positions. Yes. I don’t know if it’s because high-ranking Japanese politicians are good at imitating the Emperor, but they just say things from above without saying anything, and many of them think they’re at the top, and they never say anything like, “This is how Japan should be.” Is this the conclusion of the series, Mr. Yamamoto? Right. No, we’re really getting to a good point now. Yes. Yes. Yes. That’s true. As a leader, yes. Oh, I guess the only leader who’s led sports like that is Azuma-san, when he created the J.League . I can’t think of anyone like that since then. Well, of course he acted as if he was there when he created the B.League, but that’s about it. Yes. Yes. So I think it ends up being, how should I put it, that it’s fine as long as we can manage sports as a tool for capitalism. As Kobayashi-san said, we really need to think about what we want to do with sports , because we can’t escape capitalism anymore . So, what kind of economic foundation do we create within that? I think it would be great if politicians had concrete policies and were thinking about the future of sports. Yes. I think it’s not a bad thing for politicians to be involved in sports to some extent. Right. Yes. Just as people who conduct proper politics are beneficial to society, there should be policies that are beneficial to sports, and politicians should be able to say that, but it seems like they’re only going in the direction of using sports even if it means completely destroying it. That’s the current situation. Yes. What really surprised me today was that Yamamoto-san, even Hashimoto-san, said that the people at the top of the sport are only a small part of the vast white world of sports, and that it’s only these few people who run it that way. That’s what bothers me the most . I see. I thought that was true. Eh, Kobayashi-san, let’s try a little harder from now on. No, first of all, I think Tama-san, Yamamoto-san, and if possible, myself should be invited to a meeting to discuss the future of the Wilderness Association. [Music] Oh, that’s good. If that’s the case, then, I mean, I don’t want to complain from the sidelines or anything . But it’s a shame that we’re never being asked to do anything, and I think it might be a lack of virtue, but, you know, I’d like to be able to make those kinds of suggestions properly. That’s what I’d like. Yes. There was a time when I was in a position where I could make suggestions quite a bit. After that, I had a really strong feeling that I was being pushed out, and I thought, well, it can’t be helped, but we came to the conclusion that we should try to make sure that the game makers heard our opinions, and so, is that okay with you, Yamamoto-san?, I was given that name without saying a word. Oh, well, I, well, as Mr. Yamamoto said at the beginning, well, nowadays everything is talked about in terms of economic effects and things like that, but sports can’t be discussed solely in terms of economic effects. Well, there was a time when people used to talk about EQ versus IQ, but I think the greatest value of sports is that even though it can’t be expressed in physical terms, it has a tremendous amount of energy within people and society, and that’s what’s important. I wonder if we can properly share that kind of thing, and maybe we need indicators for this too, but I wonder if we can somehow communicate that. Well, I thought about that again today. I see. Yeah. I think so too. I’ve been thinking about it, but it’s really hard to get through to you, Yamamoto. Yeah. I want you to tell me about the eccentricities of the Knights’ Club. But I also want to be able to make some kind of proposals. A system that can make proposals. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think we can write it down and say it, but to some extent, I think there are many things we can do to cooperate in solving these issues. Yes. So, I really want to go to a place where I can make proper recommendations, and as Shinya-san said, I’m not just standing there and commenting from the sidelines, but I want to work together to think about how we can improve sports. Yeah. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. So, we’re not standing there and commenting from the sidelines, but we want to be able to appeal to the world that we really have some great reforms in place. So, thank you so much for three consecutive appearances. Yamamoto-san, Kobayashi-san, I look forward to working with you again. I think new issues will arise. I look forward to working with you again when that happens . Thank you for this time. Thank you for all your time . Thank you. So, thank you everyone for watching. Please look forward to the next Forum 8 Presents Taki Sports Journalism. See you all in the next episode. Goodbye. [Music]

[Guest] Seijo University Professor, Atsuhisa Yamamoto
Author/Sports Writer, Nobuya Kobayashi
[Commentator] Masayuki Tamaki

[WEEK 22] Considering the Present and Future of Japanese Sports

[EPISODE 3] Considering the Appointment of Senator Seiko Hashimoto as JOC President

[Atsuhisa Yamamoto]
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